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It won’t be long before all IFR aircraft will require ADS-B Out. Yes, a little Twin Comanche based at Longreach or a 172 flying out of Birdsville!Because of the ASA middle-management “ego” tripping (“we were first in the world”), Australia is going to lead the world. Even in the USA, where an ADS-B mandate comes in at 2020, it’s not below 10,000 feet in G and E airspace.Yes, the Australian requirement is unique in the world and I would imagine will send more small aviation charter businesses and training organisations out of business.The Regulation Impact Statement (“RIS”), which is prepared by CASA and Airservices, is a total sham. He talks of savings of 10% to 15% in fuel and alludes that all aircraft will benefit in this way.

Of course, if you are a GA aircraft flying predominantly in uncontrolled airspace, ADS-B Out will not help you in any way in relation to saving fuel.Remember, costs can be up to $20,000 as you not only have to get an approved Mode-S transponder but also, in many cases, upgrade the GPS to the very latest standard.And it looks as if they will get away with it! The industry is so weak (primarily because there has been so little money in GA for so long because of our ridiculous regulations) that there is virtually no-one powerful to object.RIP General Aviation. Too late now DickWasn't too late for Part 61!!And VFR aircraft got a last minute exemption from the ADSB madness.Its primarily GA IFR aircraft that fly below 10,000 ft who are being screwed by CASA / AsA.There is no safety benefit for IFR aircraft in class G airspace. There is no cost / flight routing / traffic separation benefit in class G.

Zilch, nada, none.Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADSB for all IFR in all classes of airspace at all levels.And Dick left out some costs. The cost will be nothing like $20,000 for GA.A Bendix King KT74 costs about $3,800, and is a reasonably simple upgrade from older transponders. The trays are similar sizes and I assume the same antennas and cables can be reused.Bendix King KT74 (say, $1,000 tops for an Engineering Order and maybe $1,000 for the LAME install.Probably $5k or $6k for the Mode S transponder upgrade, and you've got a shiny new piece of avionics.Transponders need to be tested every two years (from memory) and the avionics LAMEs are getting fussier about tolerances, forcing owners to upgrade older transponders anyway. I've been told the Narco AT150 in my plane won't pass again.If I have to get a new Mode C transponder, I'd just pay a bit more for Mode S to be safe. I assume this will be the same for a lot of owners. It won’t be long before all IFR aircraft will require ADS-B Out. Yes, a little Twin Comanche based at Longreach or a 172 flying out of Birdsville!Excellent news, shame its taken so long!The improvement in safety will pay for these things many times over and again.If a small operator can't afford $2 or $3k to outfit their aircraft, then they shouldn't be flying anyway!No point scaremongering, and sensationalising Dick - its not going to be anywhere near $20k for small operators, and you know it!How come you are playing down the safety aspect on this?

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Shame on you!Imagine if you beloved MDX went down with one of these things installed. The rescue crew could be sent DIRECTLY to the exact location. It seems safety improvements to some are only warranted where they are free.Ask every airline pilot in Australia who operates to uncontrolled aerodromes whether they think brand new transponders country wide for the IFR GA fleet would be a safety improvement.Every second GA IFR aircraft which never sees CTA probably doesn't have the mode C working properly anyway.In fact, I think it should be mandated for ALL aircraft, not just IFR. That would be the single biggest safety improvement we could make to Australian aviation.The safety benefit for the country of the entire GA fleet getting new transponders would have to be tenfold more than removing the Willy flight planning restriction.Which one are you going to bat for the most?Partial subsidy for owners - perhaps.Unrealistic expectation for old mate who's 1963 IFR model C172 hasn't had a new piece of avionics for the last 40 years - hardly. The improvement in safety will pay for these things many times over and again.If a small operator can't afford $2 or $3k to outfit their aircraft, then they shouldn't be flying anyway!Mate you obviously haven't installed new TXPRs and new GPSs in an IFR aeroplane.GNS650 installed by Eaglecopters was $30k, new Trig TXPR about $4k - as installed over 3 400-series Cessnas.I don't mind installing new gear but yes it is a major cost.Dick - Good luck with your campaign to remove this requirement.:rolleyes. PeterYou are only counting about half the costs.

ADSB requires a C146a (WAAS) receiver. WAAS receivers require new, different antennae and new coax cable. For most aircraft this requires major diassembly of the interior to route the cable.In my estimation, the absolute rock bottom price for this will be $6,500 for a secondhand 430W plus $5k installation.And I think you'll find the KT74 price you are quoting is a US price without Aussie GST, duty, freight & margin. Or is the price from Ozpilot which has a little asterisk saying STC and install kit not included.Plus, you forgot that you need a grey code altitude encoder which your old Narco is unlikely to have.$1k installation will be 1 day or less for most avioincs shops. Good luck with that.You're lucky because the AT150 is 3mm shorter than the KT74. And 10mm less deep.

If it was 3mm the other way, it would require the whole stack to be rebuilt. It always amazes me when people only read the last posts before weighing into the debate. Go back to the first post by Dick and you will note it is a requirement for IFR aircraft, not VFR in the circuit at Oodnabloodydatttta. So tell me pete pete and pjm (pete maybe), what is the safety advantage at uncontrolled airports? (And Jack, you should be ashamed of yourself baiting this mob).

Another thing, where can you buy an IFR GPS setup for $2,000 that will make your Victa IFR legal. I know it's been attempted by one 'knowledgeable' poster without an engineering order who thought he could remove his ADF and use his handheld GPS for NVMC flight. This bloke got caught and still barracks for the CAsA mob. Go figure if he's a Troll or not!Sorry Dick, rant over. The improvement in safety will pay for these things many times over and again.THERE IS NO SAFETY BENEFIT.There is a HUGE cost benefit to AsA.

There is a BIG cost benefit to the airlines through reduced separation, faster sector times, less holding, etc.There is no benefit to GA IFR aircraft under 10,000ft which will continue to mix with mode C VFR aircraft and non transponder gliders, balloons, RA(Aus) aircraft & historic aircraft.Once again, Australia is the only country in the world doing this. @Old Akro - if you follow the link provided it is an Australian supplier - Mendelssohn, who've always been good in the past.

Sorry to disappoint you, but a KLN94 doesn't meet the required standard for ADSB. You need to have An FDE enabled device, read TSO145 or better. The KLN94 is only TSO129.I've been going through this process working out the costs of upgrading my machine, and the with the cost of upgrading the 430 to the W model (TSO145a), the cost of replacing the transponder and the paper work etc, it will be around $15k depending on the exchange rate.For those that don't have an upgradable GPS, around $20K sounds about right.I'll also add ADSB in to OzRunways to get some use out of ADSB, can't really see how it will help me otherwise. Any compatible GPS receiver will do fine, no need to run new cabling, existing GPS antenna/connectors will do the job.wrong, wrong, wrong, wrongADS-B as required for IFR requires a C146a GPS source. Period.CASA are supposed to be running a programme to investigate using C129a.

But I'm not optimistic.Peter 005, we've had this debate before. The King KLN94 is not acceptable for ADS-B. You are misreading AC 21-45 v2.1.

The KLN 94 is a C129a device. Soon its only use will be as a boat anchor, along with the Garmin 150 / 155XL & 300 XL.From the CASA FAQ's:14. If I have ADS-B connected to TSO 129, will I have to update the box?Unless the aircraft has a separate approval for ADS-B compliance, the GNSS will require upgrading to TSO C145/146 since TSO C129 systems do not output all the information required for ADS-B. You'll be able to see who's around without radar.No.1.

Unlike the USA, Australia is implementing ADS-B out only. The units have no ability to receive data.2. VFR, RA(Aus), ballon, glider & historic aircraft will remain using mode C or will have no transponder at all. So, Ozrunways or any other non certified cheap thing will not see this traffic.All of the mid-air 'frights' I have on IFR plans had have been VFR aircraft or aircraft with non functioning or non-existent transponders.

Not one of them would have been made better by my spending $25k on upgrading to ADS-B. This includes an instance of a conflicting direction same level VFR aircraft while I was in IMC!!There is no benefit to GA IFR aircraft in class G airspace from the fitment of ADS-BAustralia is the only country in the would that is mandating ADS-B for all IFR aircraft in all airspace types at all levels. I listen to all this back and forth.and aint it so Typical of our f.kced up system.nobody, including the regulator has the slightest idea of what is, or aint required, or what complies or what doesn't.Bloody marvelous.The land of the guess!!guess what!!Okay.' Simon Said'.spare me.PLAIN LANGUAGE UNAMBIGUOUS REGULATIONS PLEASE!!!I agree based on the evidence.

All the ADSB mandate was for, was so Mc COMIC could big note himself in Montreal, and ASA directors could get a massive bonus paid for by unfortunate GA operators.Modelled perhaps on the Solar subsidy where a whole bunch of rich people, who could afford to install solar panels, were subsidized by poor people who couldn't, God our democracy has become a joke!!CORRUPTION PEOPLE!! I recall the same fuss here when transponders became mandatory for ops in CTA, except then there was only the print media, letters and aeroclub grumbling:)Gotta move with the times and technology folks.If you think you have a problem now, wait till 2016 when 200+ navaids will be switched off.Being a pilot of any kind does not make you an airspace management expert, any more than having a drivers license makes you an expert on traffic engineering - even if many think otherwise.You've certainly got that right:D. I have an IFR C172 and a CIR, I rarely fly over 9,000', most of the time between 4,000' and 8,000' in class G. The reason I choose to fly IFR is so that I do not have to 'scud run' and I enjoy the precision and skill involved in flying IFR.My aircraft has a Garmin 300XL, and Mode c Xpndr. Come 2017 I will have to remove the 300XL as it is only TSO129a and replace it with a WAAS capable TSO 146 unit, I will have to remodel the panel, replace cables and antennae.

The current quote was a ballpark of $25,000.I am not going to spend 50% of the value of the aircraft on upgrading the avionics as I will not get that back when/if I sell it. So I have a choice to either fly VFR or not fly at all. If I fly VFR then I may be delayed hours or days waiting for cloud to lift or choose to scud run. If I drive then I have to take my chances on the 'wonderful'Australian roads we have.Also, flying at 4,000 to 6,000 there are no current ADS-B receivers that will pick me up anyway unless I'm flying where there is current radar coverage. So I have no benefit if I spend the money and reduced safety if I cannot afford to spend the money, terrific! @Old Akro - if you follow the link provided it is an Australian supplier - Mendelssohn, who've always been good in the past.

AUD $3,795 inc GST is the price.My existing blind altitude encoder should work find and I'll use the KLN 94 as the GPS source.In this case, where the Narco AT150 will need to be replaced anyway, the difference in cost between a Mode C and Mode S transponder will be a couple of hundred bucks.I imagine all new planes will have Mode S transponders for this reason and it won't be easy to buy something only Mode C.Check out the Trig TT21, it's about $2,800 with built in altitude encoder:Trig TT21 Class 2 Mode S Transponder (seriously you are living in a fairytale. Your costs are nowhere representative of the true costs to the opeartor and industry. Simply quoting a new transponder cost from your on-line pilot supplies store it not going to come close to the actual total cost for many reasons.

Also, not everyone is going to try and install their avionics themselves in their certified aircraft like you once tried to do unsuccessfully in your Victa.I liken your costs to IT where you say it costs $600 for a computer from Harvey Norman so why did it cost $3,000 per PC to roll out to some government department. Chalk and cheese:ugh. The GPS source for ADS-B does not need to be panel mounted, the easiest solution for GA aircraft at the moment is the Trig TT31 which is a replacement for the KT76A, and use the Freeflight GPS located in the aircraft somewhere as the position source for the ADS-B.The GPS unit in the panel is not required to be WAAS, nor is it required to be the position source for ADS-B.Freeflight make a small GPS receiver designed specially as a stand alone position source for ADS-B. You can keep your Garmin 100 in the panel and still have ADS-B.Freeflight GPS and the Trigg TT31 will set you back around US$5k, probably budget another 5k for install.Make sure your software version on the transponder and GPS Is correct for ADS-B.Any avionics shop saying you need to remove your panel mounted GPS and install a WAAS unit for ADS-B, RUN away from, they are speaking B/S. Would be a very positive thing if they did allow a 129 to provide the GPS input though.You can hook a C129a GPS to a ADS-B transponder, and it will appear to work. The problem is as far as I understand, the C129a GPS units do not output the position integrity along with the position on the serial cable between the GPS and the transponder.So while the transponder is outputting the GPS position and altitude, it is providing incorrect position integrity.

The transponder does not know if it is a C129a or 145.For how often a 129 'fails', there would surely have to be more than enough accuracy and integrity. And even if it did fail surely it wouldn't be a major challenge for ASA manage.Happens often enough, and it would not be hard to manage if the equipment were to report immediately the integrity has been reduced. And the failures are not only on bugsmashers, big jets do also have issues.Only a week or two ago I think around 30 aircraft disappeared at the same time over Europe.

In Europe it is not uncommon to be code 1000, and ADS-B. I believe it does as the SIL and all the NIC NAC NUK's etc all need to be in place.I did remember onceThe units I am familiar with the GPS outputs Horizontal Protection Limit (HPL) and Horizontal Figure of Merit (HFOM), these are normally ARINC 429 labels 130 and 247.The ADS-B transponder converts these to NIC, NAC, SIL etc.I could not see this ARINC output on a Garmin 530, however I could on a 530W with software version 3.20.I would be interested if you could look it up, and let me know the data format used to transferred it to the ADS-B transponder.

Dexta, if your home 20 is correct, you are still inside the old j-curve.Just in case you do fly elsewhere.red bits are old school ssr, the green bits are within line of sight of an ADS-B receiver at 5000ft.My home location is correct, and I mainly fly to the SE and Melbourne, so basically as it stands now my 'coverage' will be exactly the same with ADS-B as it is with SSR, so if I want to remain IFR I have to spend $25,000 (certified aircraft, not experimental) for no benefit or fly VFR with reduced safety! Any avionics shop saying you need to remove your panel mounted GPS and install a WAAS unit for ADS-B, RUN away from, they are speaking B/S.It is a technical requirement of ADS-B that it be coupled to a C145a or C146a GPS receiver. A Mode S - ES transponder is not ADS-B compliant without it. Its actually expressed as a different tech standard, but the commercial reality is that it means a WAAS reciever, viz:Garmin 480Garmin 430W / 530WGarmin GTN 650 / 750Avidyne IFD 440 / 550King KSN 770Its documented in many places, ICAO minutes, CASA regs, take your pick.There are a couple of companies making WAAS engines to feed an ADS-B transponder, but they are pretty close to the same price as a WAAS display unit, so its hard to see a reason to go that route and miss out on the PBN benefits. They also fed me more rubbish about this being a Cessna problem, not a Garmin issue and you can't change anything on Cessna G1000 system, until Cessna issue a service bulletin to that effect, which at the time, they had not.

Sooo if you have late model Cessna with G1000, ADSB is not an option until Cessna tell you how to do it.There is an organisation in Brisbane that installed a Freeflight WAAS GPS data source in a C208B with G1000 a few months back.Off the top of my head it does not sound like a complex upgrade, as you said GTX33 to ES, and then change the GPS source on the GTX33 to a Freeflight (serial connection). The GTX33 is not G1000 specific.The GTX33 installation manual has a nice ADS-B Field Approval Compliance Matrix in the back.Sure the Foreflight box will make you ADSB compliant but if you are still using a C129 GPS for navigation, it wont help you much in practical IFR terms when PBN comes along also in 2016(?) and ASA save themselves even more money by switching off the NDB's and VOR's.That is a different issue, and I am sure there will be other alternatives by the time it comes into play.

Quote Sheet (1 1201 GPS WAAS Sensor System $3,295.00FF1201-GPSWAAS-HSA 2 1201 GPS WAAS Sensor System with High Speed Antenna $3,9-03-0306 1201 GPS WAAS Receiver CALL FOR QUOTE Install Manual Addendum $ TNC Connector 90 Degree $ High Speed Antenna $1,6 Plug, Dual Crimp, TNC, Sealed, RG142 $1 Conn, Recep, 25 Pin Dsub $ Socket, Female, Crimp (25ea per kit) $2.00841 Installation Kit $3-01 1201 Installation Manual $ Backshell Assy $48.00Just to give a bit of baseline info.pretty rare to see quotes online.Obviously, US supplier. However, hardware remains the same. Certification in Oz still may equal the EW of the aircraft:ugh. Isn't it obvious that the intention is to make equipping a small aircraft for IFR prohibitively expensive to drive them out of the system so that it is left for the airlines and military?

VFR will be barely tolerated until better ways of driving up costs are found and implemented as private pilots (like shooters) are regarded as security risks, mavericks and weirdos who aren't proper little subjects who just do as they are told without question. There aren't any citizens in Australia, just subjects. One of the arguments - at least against the cost of the Mode S ground infrastructure - was that we should go straight to ADS-B.I don't believe that this argument was ever put by GA.1. There is ZERO cost benefit to GA from ADS-B. RPT has a cost benefit, AsA has a huge cost benefit, but GA no absolutely no cost benefit.2. There is NO safety benefit (or a marginal safety benefit for remote flights only) from ADS-B for GA.3.

Free Download Program Narco At150 Transponder Manual Transfer Video

Australia is the only country in the world mandating ADS-B for GA IFR in all all airspace classes at all levels. Who knows what the intention is.Whatever. That will probably be the effect. Ever been flying on one of those totally socked in days when you get VFR traffic that has obviously found a CAVOK hole at your level only a mile or so away?Clear,How does ADS-B help. Unless you have ADS-B In, which will be rare to no-existent with larger aircraft, and a bit of a hobby thing for smaller aircraft, it will be TCAS looking at a transponder that will give you some (hopefully) useful information.Remember, airlines are NOT looking at ADS-B In, because it tells you nothing that TCAS tells you.ADS-B is primarily an ATC tool, it is NOT primarily for aircraft to aircraft collision avoidance.Tootle pip!! Airlines are NOT looking at ADS-B In, because it tells you nothing that TCAS tells you.No, ADS-B In would give a target velocity; much more helpful than TCAS, which jerks around, sometimes on the wrong side of the screen, sometimes doubled, and is just a blob.

IIRC, the yanks were looking at it for in-trail IFR climbs some time ago (eg Hawaii to the mainland).I agree though that we'll never get ADSB-In. Much more cost-effective to use Directed Traffic information! Ex Griffo, I've got a job for you!:. An unfortunate part of the Australian political landscape is that government only speaks with Industry bodies. This is nearly unique to Australia and the other countries with which I deal create mechanisms to get direct feedback from operators.

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I think this is one of Australia's major weaknesses.If you read the ABAA membership guide its essentially for jet operators who employ professional pilots. Guys like me who fly heavy singles or light twins to get around for business are not eligible.The AOPA has clearly forsaken pilots like us. It seems to me that the AOPA is a parochial Sydney based body interested in recreational VFR flying.The other loosley GA bodies on the list are all sport aviation (eg SAAA, RA Aus, GFA, etc).Currently the guys being screwed by the mandate to install ADS-B for any IFR flight at any level in any airspace have no representation.I think one of the most effective bodies is the RAAA and the speech by Jeff Boyd is an anthem. But their core values are really about regional airlines, not GA.If anyone hasn't read Jeff's speech, its here:A Bridge Too Far Pro Aviation (http://proaviation.com.au/2013/09/26/a-bridge-too-far/). What I would wish for is an enlightened, engaged CASA that has the best interests of aviation at heart and has an open dialogue with all levels of aviation and has a visceral understanding of the needs of aviators.We did have it once upon a time.Sigh.I still check under my pillow for the tooth fairy too.None of the bodies listed under the CASA list really care at all that IFR GA aircraft that don't regularly fly in primary control zones is about to be screwed to the tune of $25k per aircraft or more.RAPAC would actually be a reasonable mechanism. But if you read RAPAC minutes, its pretty clear that CASA pays little or no attention to this body. I stumbled over the article below while looking for something else (as you do).

Narco At 150 Transponder Manual

It raises some interesting points. From one of my favourite web sites.Matt Thurber (Paul went ahead and scheduled the FMS upgrade through his local factory service center.

This FMS upgrade is also relatively simple, in that it is covered by a factory service bulletin, so no supplemental type certificate (STC) is involved. Avionics upgrades don’t get much easier than this.'